Comments: The dog trainer's trainer

“NO, Cesar's show is not all about dominance training. Its too bad not everyone is open to seeing his basic principles - exercise, rules, boundries, affection. And while I get your point about the scientific definition of 'punishment' certainly you understand how using it in this circumstance is a bit over the top.

And I'm happy to say again, that with Cesar, my dog has not been aggressive in 5 years. And not because I have to continue to do anything beyond lots of exercise, lots of boundries and lots of affection. Listen to Cesar and thats what you will hear. I agree - too much on THIS subject already. I just hope noone gets hurt (or put down) because some trainers dismiss anything other than their own methods as wrong.” — DogLover, Aug 04 2008

“Dog Lover,

You're misunderstanding. It doesn't matter what I consider punishment. I don't get to decide.

Punishment is ANYTHING that decreases the behavior over time. This is a scientific principle.

If I gave a dog a hug every time he growled at another dog, and he didn't like hugs so he decreased his growling behavior in order to avoid being hugged...then I would have to conclude that hugging was a punishment for this particular dog.

The point you missed is that if you don't actually change the behavior, then you are simply managing it when it happens again and again and again.

I have no personal feelings in either direction about Cesar Millan. He seems like a really nice guy and is very entertaining to watch. He has good instincts when it comes to dogs.

My concern is that the general public is willing to believe what he says about dog behavior without checking the facts. Dominance theory is irrelevent to dog training, and that is what his show is about.

This will be my last post on the subject. Either people will actually educate themselves or they won't. I just hope that no one gets hurt along the way.” — puppyplayhouse1, Aug 04 2008

“Puppyplayhouse - I missed a VERY important part of your message. You say "...stop your dog from reacting to another dog by stepping in front of him and telling him to shush is only considered punishment IF the dog begins to react to other dogs less often over time.". Well if you consider this PUNISHMENT - then so be it. Your condescending manner is ridiculous. I love how the people who think Cesar is bad, evil, mean, dumb, think that anyone with an opposing view just does not understand the enlighted insight of the dog trainers badmouth Cesar. Quite the opposite. I've seen both in action, seen the results of both and everything I've seen, read and experienced has led me right to Cesar. ” — DogLover, Aug 04 2008

“Puppyplayhouse - yes, I'm quite aware of the difference, thank you. I am talking about the people on the list who equate Cesar with punishment/negative reinforcement. And no need to lecture me on my dogs behavior. Cesar did in a short time what the SF SPCA could not do - work with my dog to achieve lasting, long term results in a very humane way. ” — DogLover, Aug 04 2008

“DogLover,

I scanned the comments thus far and can't find anyone who suggested that exercise, rules, boundaries or affection are punishment.

The issue is not that of punishment vs reinforcement. Both are part of learning theory and both are used in positive training.

There is a HUGE difference, however, between supressing a behavior momentarily, managing a behavior and actually changing behavior.

What is seen on The Dog Whisperer is supression of behavior and management of behavior.

Being able to stop your dog from reacting to another dog by stepping in front of him and telling him to shush is only considered punishment IF the dog begins to react to other dogs less often over time.

If two months later you are STILL having to step in front of the dog and make him stop reacting, then you are just managing the behavior by supressing it in the moment.

Used correctly, which amounts to much more than simply giving a dog a treat when he sees another dog, counter conditioning and desensitization does not supress the behavior, but actually changes it. This means that the behavior of reacting to other dogs will actually decrease and the owner will not have to continue to use treats in these situations.

Do you see the difference?

I heard CM in a radio interview with Steve Dale where I believe he was a bit baffled when the subject of desensitization and counter conditioning came up. These are very, very basic concepts in dog training, but perhaps his lack of knowledge is the reason he doesn't share them with his viewers.

You can hear the interview here http://www.petworldradio.net/audioarchives.html

I think it's about the 12th interview down the list.” — puppyplayhouse1, Aug 04 2008

“I still fail to see how exercise, rules, boundrie and affection are deemed 'punishment'. My dog had a MAJOR agression problem - and at the time, there was no positive behavior to reinforce. Instead he was stopped from his behavior and when calm, given lots of affection. And yes, I stood in front of him and shhhsh'd him until he was calm. And by the way some of the 'positive trainers' talk, you would consider this punishment. Happily for me and my dog, there was someone like Cesar who understood that giving my dog a treat when he saw another dog (to give him a positive experience as Jean Donaldson recommended) just did not work. My dog is alive, happy, well-adjusted and a therapy dog, thanks to CESAR. For the sake of the dogs, I wish those who dismiss Cesar out of hand and with their studies and claims, could learn to appreciate that not using their methods does NOT equal punishment. ” — DogLover, Aug 04 2008

“Rod,

You've painted a beautiful straw man argument with a very wide brush.

The only thing I can conclude from your comments is that several of your clients have seen other trainers before they've come to you.

Unless you met with the previous trainer and know exactly what transpired between the trainer and client, you have no idea why the client is now with you.

Every trainer gets clients who have seen other trainers. It's quite common for the client to blame the previous trainer for failures. Might be true, might not be true.

Even when it is true that the previous trainer failed, it is the trainer who failed, not the method.

Any positive trainer who knows anything could never logically argue that punishment doesn't work. No one can say that intimidation and force don't work. Punishment is part of learning theory; science proves to us that it works. Just as science proves to us that positive reinforcement works. There is nothing to argue there.

However, given other scientific developments and studies over the past 25 years, many are no longer satisfied with results alone.

I can hit a dog on the head with rock and get results. As long as I know when and how hard to hit the dog.

As we move ahead, the questions trainers are asking now are about how we choose to get our results. For instance, if we know that lure/reward training is just as fast and effective as training with punishment, yet easier for dog owners to perform correctly with no adverse behavioral fallout, how can we ethically choose not to use it?

Ask around and you will find that most positive trainers who have been training for several years are well-versed in other methods. Many of them started with those methods and taught them for years. They are not using positive methods now because it's all they know. They have made a choice based on experience, science, studies and knowledge of dog behavior.” — puppyplayhouse1, Aug 03 2008

“I have heard of Ian Dunbar and Cesar Millan. As a dog trainer, I have made a habit of reading about other training methods. I consider it my responsibility to my clients that I have the tools necessary to make them successful in training their dogs.
Over the years I have watched as the trainers who claim that they use "positive" training methods, fail so many of their clients because they let their egos get in the way because they only know 1 way.
When Cesar came on the scene he was working with serious aggression issues and other extreme behavior problems. He used sound techniques using methods based on an understanding of instinctual behavior. This appalled many in the dog training game.
From experience I can tell you that most trainers are not equipped to handle aggressive dogs much less other behavioral issues.
I have trained dogs for almost 30 years and have countless dogs that have come to me because they have flunked out of a "positive" training class. Food, clicker and other "positive" training methods are not the end all. They are tools that used and taught correctly are valuable to the dog trainer. They, however, are not the only way, as claimed by many trainers today. A sound understanding of dog behavior, breed characteristics, sound knowledge of a variety of training methods and experience make a good dog trainer.
” — rod_butts, Aug 03 2008

“I didn't see this article as a pissing contest between two trainers. It's not even about which method is best.

The outcry from professional trainers about the dangers of The Dog Whisperer are not born of jealousy. It is a plea for critical thinking, which is lacking in many areas, not just dog training.

I am shocked that more people don't know who Dr. Dunbar is and are not familiar with his work. (By the way, he also grew up on a farm, with dogs, in another country)

I'm further shocked that anyone feels they are equipped to carry on an argument about dog behavior or training methods if their only frame of reference is The Dog Whisperer.

So you find his show entertaining...great. That doesn't prove or disprove a darn thing.

I believe the point of the article (which was not written by Dunbar) was to say, "Hey guys, have you gone beyond the personality to see if what this guy is saying holds up? Did you know there are some other people who have being doing this for decades who have different information? Maybe you should take a look and make an informed decision."

Is that so offensive? Are people really so infatuated with this guy that they would get emotional about the idea of looking at the facts for fear that they might not match what he's saying? Isn't that rather cultish?

Anyone who is serious about understanding dogs would be compelled to actually read and watch what others have to say on the subject. Take a look at Dunbar's years of work. Then look up Ray Coppinger, Bob Bailey, Patricia McConnell, Jean Donaldson, Sue Sternberg and Suzanne Clothier...just to name a few.

Get the facts on Dominance Theory. Do you know where it came from? Do you know that it's been proven false? Did you know that in a study of feral village dogs it was found that they don't live in packs?

Visit Dunbar's website at www.dogstardaily.com and browse the info provided.

The point is, don't be so tied to a personality that you are unwilling to find out the truth. IF you go in search of the truth and find evidence to support what CM is saying, THEN you have an argument that makes sense. Loving his show is an opinion on entertainment, not a valid argument to support the effectiveness or safety of his methods.” — puppyplayhouse1, Aug 03 2008

“Et tu, Brute?

BTW, one of Cesar's mantras is "like energy". An owner would never "get physical" with an already well adjusted, calm-submissive dog.” — equiluv, Aug 03 2008

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