Comments: The dog trainer's trainer

“You are a coward, a liar and a thief. Now that you've been exposed as a liar; trying to steal Sudduth's ideas and passing them off as your own; you change your tune. Looking back at your posts, I've now noticed that major parts of your posts are ripped off from someone else. I stopped counting at 1/2 dozen clear cases of plagiarism and dishonest quotemining; including your pathetic attempt to quotemine Dr. Dunbar.

And you are a coward scumbag liar. The Original PrometheansFire from whom you stole the handle has been refuting the idiocies you've posted in youtube for well over 2 years. You're trying to achieve some semblance of credibility by taking his handle. But then, that's just in line with your dishonest approach. You are a LIAR and THIEF, stealing the work of others, quoting out of context and stealing identities. A COWARD for not posting under you own handle and an ignorant poser for not being capable of discussing this in an intelligent manner.

It may be too difficult to get through your thick head, it's been explained to you that BEHAVIORISTS and BEHAVIORISM is not the same thing. Perhaps you would do better if you actually learned the meaning of words instead of parroting what you hear on television or rip off from other websites.” — Corinthian, Apr 30 2009

“The Greatest Obstacle to Discovery is Not Ignorance, it is the Illusion of Knowledge.
The Recipe for Perpetual Ignorance is a very Simple and Effective One: be Satisfied with your Opinions and Content with your Knowledge.- Daniel Boorstin

'They will even take on your Handle'?
You make it sound as if I were using the Skin of an Animal that I Hunted Down!
just FYI my profile says August 2008 and your say February 2009 some one is a Liar here!

You ask for it and here is, my Ignoranus Copycat
I quote THE HONEST POSITION about the Alpha Roll of Larry Sudduth

'Like compulsive methods in general, the compulsive training of a posture (whether or not the dog accords the posture uniquely canine significance in certain contexts), can contribute to the establishment of a dominant role by a handler. Such training can also lead to unanticipated affect. The dog could react to such training as if the trainer is participating in canine dominance-negotiation behavior, e.g., a challenge. In this case, the trainer should be prepared to cope with the dog's normal behavioral response. The trainer should understand what is required to gracefully win such a confrontation. The trainer should, as well, understand how to behave if necessary to resign and lose the confrontation, such that the dog understands that the confrontation is finished. The dog's perception of human factors, e.g., the level of fear and 'force of personality' in the trainer, contribute to the outcome of such encounters.' -Larry Sudduth
Do you want more?

Oh! I forgot maybe you can explain your... 'actually learn about dogs, wolves and COGNITION...' Because... Accord to All of those 'positive trainers' and behaviourists, Behaviorism focuses only on the objectively observable aspects of learning, and discounts the internal processing that might be associated with the activity.
For behaviorism, learning is the acquisition of new behavior through Conditioning OC, CC. and they Discount Cognitive Analyses of animal behavior.
Like, I quote from Pseudo 'experts' on dog behaviour:
'Oh, and 'the respect comes later." WT*? Dogs don't respect. Dogs operate in the NOW and do things that please them alone; dogs do not do anything out of a desire to please a person. Ridiculous
Dogs don't have any understanding of 'trust, As a scientist I use evidence to support anything I claim. I have a graduate degree " -Keg021985, Pseudo MS

'Biting is not about dominance.Dogs do Not Have the Cognitive skills to be dominant or a leader.Being dominant would require planning and manipulation,something a dog is just unable to do.' -webster322
So, tell me, they are Wrong?
If I want, I also can quote several Scientists, Behaviourists, Trainers who believe the 'only positive' training is no so effective e.g.
'I believe we should strive more for democracy than outright autocracy, or the opposite which is totally ignoring the bad behaviour and only praising the good, which appears to be the Misguided Belief of the So Called Positive Reinforcement Trainers.
I use operant conditioning methods. And if these trainers understood "operant conditioning" They Would Know there are four parts to it. Not Just positive reinforcement in isolation.' - Stan Rawlinson, the Ian Dunbar on UK

But, I don't want Spam all the place like you.
” — PrometheansFire, Apr 25 2009

“When there is a 'thump' and the momentum from the "touch" causes be forced back then it's a hit.

When people touch, their hands or feet don't come in at such speed that when they "touch" you they jerk you back.

I guess you could argue that he does Touch because a Hit is a subset of touching. ” — Corinthian, Apr 16 2009

“Wow! this amazing.All the anti-Cesars keep referring to "hitting".Do you not understand the differance between hitting and touching?I am no dog expert,but I have used Millans techniques,and it works.He always has the dogs best interest as a priority.I really don't understand how anyone can find fault with his approach.Maybe it is those 2 human traits,jealousy and envy
MJ” — sesltd1, Apr 15 2009

“Faker and thief do not steal another persons work and try to pass it off as yoru own.

The quote below, you tried to pass off as your own belongs to LARRY SUDDUTH

Your limited vocabulary and poor writing skills makes it very easy to know when you are stealing from others.

This is the another example of the dishonest methods employed by Millan's supporters. They will even take on your Handle to spread their lies.” — PrometheansFire, Apr 15 2009

“My perpetually uninformed ignorant shadow is fond of fabrications and outrageous statements. Whether this is done out of sheer ignorance or blind zealotry is had to say. Likely a combination of both. Though what is certain is that it takes someone of reduced mental capacity to label people who demand scientific evidnce as evangelical or extremists. Though it seems a natural position for them to take given that they can't provide any evidence of their assertions. Since they can't address the issues, they have to focus on the messengers.

The poor pretender does not understand that making up lies only means you are a primary source of lies. Without any documentation to back up his obvious lies, Cesar's argument of authority simply fails. What's worse is that isn't even an authority in the first place. Certainly he's not an authority on wolves even though he likes to pretend that he is. It's sad that the poor faker doesn't even know what it means when someone refers to a primary source. And the circular logic used would be laughable if dogs weren't suffering because of it.

Take for example cases of Emily the Pitbull, The Skater Hater, The jumpin MinPin, Opie, the aggressive Jindo, and many other dogs seen in his show are as bad as ever.' - Dog Whisperer with Cesar Millan The Ultimate Episode Guide by Cesar Millan. Hope you found that satisfying Faker.

Perhaps you should go to the Library, and while your there think of your own original name so you don't have to steal mine. It is there where you might find that wolves don't go around the pack being aggressive to each other. How about looking up the dangers of flooding a phobic dog. Or the recent study from University of Pensylvania that concludes aggressive methods shown on DW tends to produce aggressive dogs. Or brush up on the work of Esther Schalke or Turig Rugaas to learn all about calming signals that don't seem to mean a thing to Millan.

Faker, just like you known nothing about dog training, your ignorance about the law is equally vast. A constitutional scholar you are not.

Your arguments are of poor quality and serve only to discredit your side. It will be best if you let other people defend Millan. Your "contribution" makes all of them seem ignorant.

Given your love for Millan's violent methods, it does not surprise me you have a beef against PAACT - Partners for Antiviolence Awareness Community Training

” — PrometheansFire, Apr 15 2009

“Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the Gods. - Albert Einstein

Wow! a Fan... or is a Copycat?
You'll see how your Intolerance towards other methods attracted too many Evangelical and Extremist Types and Nasty Hard Core Fundamentalists of the 'pure positive' training.
ok! here we go!
- 'No one has stateted that you need to be formally educated to provide accurate information, as long as you provide a reliable source.'- quote
That's True... Unless... You Were the Primary Source,
Which on the case of Cesar,
He is the Primary Source of Information.
What he States is based on HIS Work, on HIS Experience, on HIS Skills
He is the one with Direct Personal Knowledge of the Events Being Described.
So, when you argue:
- 'Cesar is a joke because as Dr. Hetts writes many of his statements are "complete fabrications."-
- 'Honest, accurate explanations require detail, and this cannot be achieved with idiotic quips like "The hand is a bite" - quote
your arguments Crumble and you become the Joke.
scientific statement? Go to your Closest Library to do some Research, use your own brain and make use of your own understanding.
If I had to offer one single item of advice, it would be to view with Suspicion Everything that an author Exhorts to be the Truth.
-'You don't need to know my background or anything about me because when I state " fear is mainly controled by Pavlovian influences" because I will give you the source' -...quote
So, when you state 'Take for example cases of Emily the Pitbull, The Skater Hater, The jumpin MinPin, Opie, the aggressive Jindo, and many other dogs seen in his show are as bad as ever.'
Which are your sources?
Because when you State 'are as bad as ever' you claim that you follow every single case on real time and you have Evidence to support your statement
Otherwise you are making an Assertion and if this Assertion is False, what you are doing is called Libel and Slander.
Which isn't protected by the Constitution, First Amendment, Freedom of Speech and you could be subject to a Lawsuit.
Otherwise if you base your claims on what you read on Cesar's site, then you FAIL on order to provide the Source of your information,
So then, Where on the Heaven is your Self Proclaimed Honesty when you State - ' You don't need to know my background or anything about me because when I state " fear is blah, blah, blah, blah" because I WILL GIVE YOU THE SOURCE' -...
Or we must think you are one of those Scammers who run their...
'Phonie-Animal-Association-Canine-Trainers'
.... from a PC.” — PrometheansFire, Apr 15 2009

“



And Cesar wins over his uniformed audiences with soundbites and easy to grasp (though inaccurate) statements. The is the situation is complex and requires what you incorrectly call long winded argumenst. Honest, accurate explanations require detail, and this cannot be achieved with idiotic quips like "The hand is a bite" While his soundbite messages are appealing to people with little knowledge and no patience to learn about animal behavior, the facts are vastly different from how he presents them. It is not arrogant to demand accurate scientific statement, nor is accurate that the person making statement provide evidence of them. You arguments are pure straw man. No one has stateted that you need to be formally educated to provide accurate information, as long as you provide a reliable source. You don't need to know my background or anything about me because when I state " fear is mainly controled by Pavlovian influences" because I will give you the source [Maren S (2001). Neurobiology of Pavlovian fear conditioning. Annu Rev Neurosci, 24: 897–931.] Cesar is a joke because as Dr. Hetts writes many of his statements are "complete fabrications."


The article is accurate in it's description of choke chains. A choke chain chokes, it momentarily cuts off air and anyone familar with anatomy quickly realizes that is it's main function. I'm not impressed by Millan's marketing campaing claiming that he has worked with other dog's trainers have given up on. This is true for anyone who has ever trained dogs and more importantly his success is not all that he makes it out to be. Take for example cases of Emily the Pitbull, The Skater Hater, The jumpin MinPin, Opie, the aggressive Jindo, and many other dogs seen in his show are as bad as ever. He gave the TV audience and the owners the illusion that their dogs was fixed by repeatedly jerking them or choking them or kicking them or jabbing them until they stopped moving and then he called it calm submssion - audience is amazed, owners ara amazed. Millan looks like a hero who really knows dogs but the reality is far different. Once the abuse stopped, the animal returned to it's old ways.

Janis Bradley, Instructor at The San Franciso SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers and Author of the book, "Dogs Bite" also expressed this opinion:

"On his TV show, the main method Millan uses for aggression is aversives (leash jerks, kicks, snaps of the hand against the neck, and restraint, among others) applied non contingently. The aversives are non contingent because they are so frequent that they're not connected to any particular behavior on the part of the dog—the dog gets popped pretty much constantly. This results in a state called learned helplessness, which means the animal hunkers down and tries to do as little as possible. This is what Millan calls "calm submission."

Real experts know that wolves don't go around biting each other to establish dominance in the pack. Real experts know that dogs don't forcibly pin each other to the ground and real experts know that walking in front is not a sign of dominance. Real experts know that you can't dominate a dog out of fear as Millan so often tries and that you can't punish away it's fear as he has done in a few of his episodes. Maybe Millan should take advantage of the sources at National Geographic and actually learn about dogs, wolves and cognition so he can stop lying to his victims... I mean audience.

And you know why Cesar can't talk about others, because he literally can't. He doesn't possess the knowledge required to discuss the issues. Ask Millan about maladptive fear and you'd get a blank stare. Calming signals... in one episode he claimed a particular signal was was aggression and dominance. As he writes in his website to excuse his ignorance, his methods are "intinctual"

” — PrometheansFire, Apr 11 2009

“Thank you Promtheansfire for pulling your last three posts off another website.

So-called 'learned' proffessionals will often put up long winded arguments against someone who goes against their very own ego motivated ethos, which is basically 'I have qualifications. I have worked hard for these and so therefore, if you dont have qualifications, you know nothing', which really points to their own arrogance, in the sense they seem to suggest that a person without formal qualifications or training is somehow, less than they are.

The article on here has stated quite a few innacuracies which noone seems to have picked up on.

For example, the use of a choke chain. Any competent trainer knows that a choke chain isnt for choking the dog with, but rather, used as a tool for correction/communication. If used in the correct way, they do not choke, cause pain or cause discomfort. IF you actually watch Cesars shows ( and I get a feeling you dont ), you will know that Cesar tends to stick with the tools that the dog owners use themselves. I have never seen him choke a dog, or use a choke chain innapropriately ( like some of these so-called book-smart 'experts' will have you believe), but instead, I have observed him using them in the correct way. I do know Cesar himself would rather choose not to use them, and has consistently that you can achieve the same thing with a cheap nylon leash.

Another fact that a lot of you seem to be choosing to ignore, is that Cesar has worked with dogs that other trainers have said were lost causes, and in some cases, he has worked with dogs that other trainers have said should be euthanised. Then Cesar goes ahead and uses his own techniques with great success. What does that say about other trainers? Cesar must be doing something right.

Perhaps if you other so-called experts out there would stop thinking with your ego's for one second and actually use your 'better' side of your brain, you might actually learn that your way isnt the only way, and that there are people out there who dont need to have the formal qualifications to actually demonstrate they actually know better than you.

Do you see Cesar Millan putting down other trainers and behaviourists? No. and why is that? Because he isnt arrogant to believe he has all the answers, and he shows by example, and doesnt need to deride the rest of the dog training world to prove a point.” — k9friend, Apr 11 2009

“Dr. Suzanne Hetts, Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist
Co-owner of Animal Behavior Associates, Inc., Littleton, CO

"A number of qualified professionals have voiced concern for the welfare of pet dogs that experience the strong corrections administered by Mr. Millan. My concerns are based on his inappropriateness, inaccurate statements, and complete fabrications of explanations for dog behavior. His ideas, especially those about “dominance”, are completely disconnected from the sciences of ethology and animal learning, which are our best hope for understanding and training our dogs and meeting their behavioral needs. Many of the techniques he encourages the public to try are dangerous, and not good for dogs or our relationships with them ."” — PrometheansFire, Apr 10 2009

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