Comments: The dog trainer's trainer

“It should be noted at this point in the conversation, the entire article (including the sidebar) has now been changed.

Thank you for removing almost all of the anti-Cesar propaganda. It told us very little about Ian's philosophies and history, but spoke volumes about the the nasty side of dog training politics.

Dog "training" has indeed come a long way, and I've studied most of the methods in my 52 years. I use an eclectic mix depending upon what I'm trying to achieve with a given dog within a given moment, and overall.

We are still talking about two different areas when we discuss training vs rehab, operant conditioning vs social learning...while keeping in mind classical conditioning is an ever present factor which also impacts a dog's psychology, behavior, and choice. ” — chasorg, Sep 03 2008

“The Trouble with Ian Dunbar's allegedly 'Positive' reinforcement Methods:
He made of Skinner Philosophy his Dogma and his Faithful Followers become Fundamentalists of 'Only Positive' Training
Those called 'respected' trainers and behaviorists become just a Simple Pigeons who are involved in a very organized smear crusade of lies, letter writing campaigns, petitions, and emotional manipulation in order to sell their beliefs for a buck rather than put the needs of the dog and owner, first.
They Use the PHILOSOPHY, NOT The Method of B.F. Skinner (Operant Conditioning) Skinner depicted a UTOPIAN community based on his ideas regarding behavior modification.
His book Beyond Freedom and Dignity and first published in 1971. The book argues that entrenched belief in free will and the moral autonomy of the individual (which Skinner referred to as "dignity") hinders the prospect of using scientific methods to modify behavior for the purpose of building a happier and better organized society.
Where the 'Punishment' Does Not Exist.
Beyond Freedom and Dignity may be summarized as an attempt to promote Skinner's philosophy of science, the technology of human behavior, his conception of determinism, and what Skinner calls 'cultural engineering'. of their practice of scientific social planning and use of operant conditioning in the raising of children.
When you excel you are actually sticking your head up high enough to get shot. Only if you are truly excellent will the shots all miss and leave you standing straight and tall above the masses.
” — PrometheansFire, Aug 28 2008

“I think that what everyone is forgetting here is the basic concepts of natural behavior. Is treating your dogs as instinctual pack animals by relating to them with a pack leader mentality more in tune with the natural behavior of dogs, or is setting booby traps and circumstantial rewards, institutionalizing Pavlov's theory at it's finest more in tune with the natural behavior of dogs? My opinion is that what Cesar Millan has developed is a way to co-exist with dogs in an environment with a mentality that is more consistent with a dogs behavior as mother nature created it. It is also my opinion that too many people have become cosmopolitan and "civilized" to recognize a natural method even when Cesar jumps up and "corrects" them in the rear end with it. My opinion is that the "nay-say'ers" to Cesar's methods are simply looking for a way to skirt the natural cycle to adapt their dogs to their lifestyle in an unnatural method of Pavlovian circumstance "training". Heaven forbid that someone adapt THEMSELVES in order to "integrate" the less civilized demeanor of the dog to the civilized lifestyle of the average urbanized human. If you wish to be out of tune with the natural cycle of life then by all means, set a booby trap to train your dog. But don't call down those who choose to walk with a more natural approach to dog/human integration.

-KrisinCanada” — kris, Aug 25 2008

“The trouble with Ian Dunbar’s allegedly positive reinforcement methods:

I tried to find out more about Ian’s “reward-based approach” and was shocked when I came across an excerpt from “How to Teach An Old Dog New Tricks”, by Ian Dunbar on this very site (http://dogtime.com/articles/354?breaks=2532_5035
_7540_8907&page=3&slug=true&title=
dog-training-behavior-chewing-dunbar).

In this excerpt Dunbar recommends booby-traps to deal with chewing or trashing issues: “Twenty or so beer cans (each containing a couple of pebbles for maximum rattle-effect are stacked on a sheet of cardboard, which is placed on top of three other cans, one of which is balanced on the edge of a shelf or counter, overhanging the object to be protected, e.g., the kitchen garbage. A piece of string links the precariously balanced support-can to the bait, e.g., a piece of paper dipped in chicken broth or bacon fat, which is laid on top of crumpled newspaper which fills the garbage can. When the dog grabs the bait, the string tugs out one of the bottom three beer cans, causing the cardboard to tilt and all the other beer cans to crash around the dog.”

Dunbar proudly touts this contraption as allowing the dog to be “effectively *punished* without risking the danger of ruining the relation between owner and dog.”

Hmmmmm….

Well, in my book this kind of fear-tactic that scares a dog out of his mind and risks some pebble-filled beer cans hitting him right on the head does not show up under “reward-based approach” or “quietly training”. Dunbar’s suggested method is much worse than (and just as absurd as) using an e-collar because it risks injury of your dog!

What kind of inhumane idea is it to bait your dog with bacon fat and then dropping 20 beer cans on his head? I was not aware of such abusive suggestions in Ian Dunbar’s repertoire. I actually have the impressions that treating your dog like this might be well into the legal area of pet abuse in many countries.

I cannot believe that an alleged dog-lover site like “dogtime” keeps recommending such cruel “training” suggestions. You have revealed that your greedy eyes are envying CM’s market share much more than being focused on dog-welfare.

Shame on you once more!!!
” — TMH, Aug 24 2008

“Cesar would have no show if folks who get dogs used the training methods developed by Ian Dunbar. But, the reality is people get dogs and expect the dogs to love them so much they will be good dogs. Instead, they turn into what Cesar calls red zone dogs and end up in shelters and are euthanized.

If those who speak against Cesar have the resources to rescue and retrain these red zone dogs, please do so. Untill you correct this problem, Cesar is a wonderful alternative, and educates o lot of people about the need to excercise and provide training for their dogs. Seems to me that the real issue is ego rather than a true concern about whats going on with dogs in this country.
mdb 082108.” — mdb, Aug 21 2008

“Excellent comments TMH.
Now we are bashing you guys? Excuse me!
First at all I said SOME, People with interest in controlling the methods and trainers
Don't be so naive, the pet industry is a multi-billion business and a different methods with a strong influence on the dog owners (possible costumers) represents a treat to their interests.
There is a very specific group of anti-Cesar out there which seems to be lead by Jean Donaldson, Pat Miller, Mark Derr, Claudia Kawczynska their friends, Nicolas Dodman, Karen Pryor, colleagues, fellow APDT members, Suzanne Hetts, Violet Michaels and faithful followers and nasty fans of 'pure positive' training .
Don't believe me? Get out on the net and do some random searches and see what you find. Go read through the comments in Cesar's book reviews, even You Tube, go anywhere Cesar is discussed and see who shows up spreading their hate, malice, and misinformation while at the same time promoting their own methods and authors.
” — PrometheansFire, Aug 20 2008

“Sorry, Clunycat!

I cannot see the bashing of positive-reinforcement trainers here. I can see the bashing of a poorly written smear article that tries to put Ian Dunbar's elusive but apparently positive training methods over the "punishment" methods of Cesar Millan as depicted in his TV show. Most comments are criticizing this narrow-sighted view of the writer/editor/publisher and the often clearly misleading ways in which Cesar Millan's methods are described. For my part, I am a far cry from calling any dog trainers names or insulting them based on their techniques. I do not like smearing one approach to showcase another, though, especially when the former is actually working quite well.

I find the way CMs methods are being distorted here disgusting. E.g. I have not seen a single nod from CM to the "punishment" techniques repeatedly brought up here - it's a ridiculous pseudo-argument. CM does not punish dogs in the common sense of the word.

CM's techniques, while arguable, are pretty effective with aggressive cases and I have not seen a working alternative from the positive-reinforcement point of view. Maybe you can give some alternative and positive approach from your experience.

IMHO different dogs require different techniques for the desired results. It would be good if different approaches would be honored with equal openness as long as the results are satisfying for humans and dogs alike. All academic theory aside: we should salute anyone who saves a dog from being put down, not smear him.” — TMH, Aug 20 2008

“Are you kidding, Leslie Smith?

How is your "trouble with Cesar" and "why he's way off" series anything but a smear campaign? You could have chosen to contrast Cesar's opinion as voiced by him with somebody else's opinion e.g. Ian Dunbar's in a neutral way. That would have been a way to stimulate discussion. Instead you published a completely judgmental piece on how "off" Cesar is and how awesome Ian's method works that you fail to illustrate. That is not journalism, but badly executed propaganda. Why do you feel compelled to justify your article in the comments section with some lukewarm phrases? Just be yourself and admit to your agenda...” — TMH, Aug 20 2008

“This is a bitter article. That is what many of the negative comments here are about, not so much DEFENDING Cesar but complaining about the quality and informativeness of this article.

Point is that I read this and learned NOTHING but the man's name.

It would help if the article actually suggested other things to read and watch to teach the common dog owner a better way to deal with their pet. THAT would have made this article worth the reading.

Still waiting.” — darkerphoenix, Aug 19 2008

“Please note that many of us professional "positive" trainers who have, in one of the last posts, been dismissed as "fundamantalists" with Karen Pryor's book as our "bible", have been training a long time, and that we have, over many years, used (and also recognize) all sorts of training methods being marketed as "new and improved" when they may be neither.

Some of us may actually be helping just as many dogs and owners as Mr, Millan does, and there are even some of us, who ARE pretty adept as reading, understanding and handling dogs....not simply "so-called" experts. We know what we're doing. And we are helping.

I truly have no jealousy or ego, bruised or otherwise, about this. I only care about the welfare of dogs and the ability of their owners to live with them, understand them and communicate with them. However, as I read back over most of these posts, it is appears it is more of the Cesar fans that are subscribing to you own dogma (sorry!), and are bashing those of us who have quietly trained dogs for 30 or 40 years. Of course it is with no recognition. That's not why I, or most of us, got into professional training anyhow. (Nor is it to make money. I struggle to pay my bills each month and left a lucrative career in public broadcasting in CA, the UK and MN to do dog work full time, because I feel what I do as a professional trainer is extremely important to dogs and owners, and yes, I feel I have a gift for communicating with owners and understanding their dogs. I don't care to be in the public eye with it.)

Many of us, like myself,now being attacked and called names have probably been training using various methodologies over time longer than even Mr. Millan. Therefore I, at least, well recognize other methods because I have used them in the past, including Mr. Millan's approach (whose "Way", by the way, is not new at all in dog behavior or dog training. It is a variation on the way most of us handled dogs 30 years ago. I know. I was there training at the time. No matter how you parse it, the fact is that it is based on the dominance model, as much as all of Mr. Millan's supporters want to say otherwise or not understand the connection.)

And, yes, of course there are many other methods that will eradicate unwanted behaviors, or teach new ones in dogs other than operant conditioning or positive reinforcement. And operant conditioning, and variations of it, may not work with all dogs, but it certainly works with the majority of dogs I have ever met in over 50 years.

However, it has been my experience in those four decades of training dogs in all ways - including old school variations on what Cesar is doing - that I now know on both an intellectual and professional level as well as on a personal and more emotional spot, that the old methods (including Millan's) would never be my first choice in approaching a dog. I used to train that way and find that most of the methods either simply overfaces most dogs, giving you a dog that operates out of fear-respect rather than love-respect, or that it gets owners in more trouble, or even gets them injured.

(Somewhat off subject, but since it seems that Mr. Millan being on TV gives more credibility than those of us "not famous"? I'd hope that just because your MD, psychcotherapist or pastor doesn't have a TV show, you'd give at least as much respect and credibility - perhaps MORE - than to docs, therapists and preachers on TV! We should be a little more media savvy in this country and have the intellectual skepticism to admit that just because someone has a TV show or a radio program or a newspaper column doesn't make them an "expert" either in many cases, and jstu becasue someone who is a professional in teh same field does not have access or the personality to carry a show on TV or radio does not make them a "so-called expert" either! We can't be that naive about the media, but that's another debate!)

I really appreciated Puppy Playhouse's comments and would love to discuss more of this interesting but disturbing debate with you offsite if possible.

Clunycat” — clunycat, Aug 19 2008

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